Social work’s contributions to Direct Practice: Jeanne Marsh, Mary Bunn, Izumi Sakamoto

Social work’s contributions to Direct Practice: Jeanne Marsh, Mary Bunn, Izumi Sakamoto


good afternoon it really is a an amazing
opportunity to participate in this forum I want to thank Mark and the social
service review asws w swear I’d like to thank my collaborator Mary Bunn who I
consider a real practitioner SSA trained emerging scholar and our doctoral
program with fifteen years of practice experience in international Social Work
working with refugees and torture victims I also will just observe that my
training is in the interpersonal practice sequence it at Michigan where I
had healthy exposure to Roland Warren and certainly to Rothman so that may in
fact influence some of my remarks today but I’d also like to thank all of you
who are still in the room there are a great many people of you out there whom
I respect and I really look forward to whatever reactions you might have to the
remarks we make today the way that we are trying to deal with the time
constraints that we have in front of us is to first of all divide our effort
into three parts the first part which Mary will go through is really trying to
deal with some of these history and definitional issues relevant to direct
Social Work practice we’re next going to take a look at some data that in fact I
don’t think has ever been presented before data related to what are the
specific tasks of direct practice Social Work and what is the knowledgebase and
research that informs the work that social workers do and finally we’ll try
to do what Mark asked and project forward what
what these findings may mean for the future of direct Social Work practice okay sorry I thought this we may have
gotten the wrong slide in here but basically the the take-home message is
that when we think about professions we think of them all professions as defined
by the tests that they do and the knowledge base that informs those tasks
we we’re thinking about Social Work profession and really this is true of
all professions as essentially vertically integrated direct practice
administration community organization and policy and implicit in what we’re
talking about is that it’s really not possible to talk about one method
without considering the others finally the results of our presentation will
bring forward some realities of direct practice social work which first of for
most the evidence shows mental health and child welfare our major practice
areas but they the range of practice areas that we’re operating in now is
really quite numerous and growing and changing the other issue that our data
show is that depending on what data you look at one half to two thirds of our
graduates report direct practice as their primary method so that that
statistic in particular seems to be a bit contested if you listen to the
presentations today and I hope we can talk about that and the data we have all
cswe data are showing that a micro and macro practice the students we trained
in those two areas are growing at a comparable rate we are in a growth
industry and Social Work practitioners in terms
of the data that they use report both conceptual and instrumental knowledge
and when you look at what knowledge practitioners report that they use they
really cite the value of both conceptual as well as instrumental knowledge so now
I’m going to turn it over to Mary to talk a bit about definition in history
and thank you my name is Mary Bunn and I’m very happy to be here today as Jean
mentioned this first part of our presentation will provide a context for
our discussion in terms of the theoretical orientation that we’re using
conceptualizations and definitions to shape our ideas about the state of
direct practice in terms of theory of professions this special symposium as
was discussed earlier was organized in conjunction with the hundredth
anniversary of the Flexner speech one that’s well known notorious and perhaps
in social work for our purposes today we found it more useful to draw on Abbott’s
work an institutional theory of profession and for this presentation
four key ideas contained in that theory the first point of orientation is that
professions are defined by the societal problems they seek to address and for
social work we define that as solving issues of social justice which we’ve
just heard needs further clarification and opera operationalization in order to
be meaningful the second idea is that professions develop at an organizational
field and occupy and control certain domains of activity and that these are
likely to shift and change over time the third idea is that professions are
strengthened by differentiation within the profession which we refer to as
vertical integration this includes various degrees offered within the field
of Social Work or perhaps various ways and roles and methods that social
workers may and may be engaged in and vary
practice areas and the last idea is that professions gain legitimacy through
codes of ethics accreditation and licensure processes we wanted to note
that which has been noted already so far that this conference can has
conceptualized direct practice as a method however we use this graphic as a
way to highlight the fact that there are many entry points into thinking about
and conceptualizing direct practice including by population practice area
and even setting of practice and we may for our future work on this on this on
this presentation want to update this graphic that we used to use for today to
include emerging areas of Social Work direct practice such as criminal justice
violence prevention International Social Work Human Rights training and
supervising community members and paraprofessionals far from the the
presumption of direct practice as a as an as a narrow concept definition we we
think we are thinking about it as a multi-faceted method that inherently
requires engagement at multiple levels including micro meso and macro and we
find some resonance with this idea in the NASW definition of direct practice
which is which we’re sharing today so now we want to shift and and look ever
so briefly at the history of Social Work direct practice and highlight some key
contributions that have had an enduring effect on how we approach services
before doing so as our co-presenters have done we want to acknowledge the
impossibility of this task in terms of doing any justice to the topic in this
extremely short presentation and I want to also indicate that we’re departing
very briefly in this section from the more integrative conceptualization of
direct practice that we’ve just discussed and focused on social work
authors fitting within a more narrow conceptualization of direct practice for
the purpose of this presentation we’ve divided the approximately hundred year
history of Social Work direct practice into three major waves which we’ve met
with which we have chosen to call early notions of helping refining direct
practice and increasing effectiveness of practice so assuming that you can even
read the slide given how how dense it is we want to highlight just a few ideas
for today the first is the early work of Mary Richmond who’s been mentioned
several times today and who we see as the pioneer of vertical vertical
integration indirect practice with her retail wholesale method which highlights
the need for engagement at the individual and macro level and the ways
in which they inform and enrich each other a second looking across the
initial history of direct practice contributions we see that there’s an ebb
and flow in terms of the extent to which this integrated view this more holistic
multifaceted view of direct practice is reflected versus of more narrow and
specialized formulation the last point we want to make about the history of
direct practice for today is that the most recent wave we see ourselves in is
one that’s focused on increasing the effectiveness of direct practice and
this has certainly changed it has a has had important contributions in terms of
the way and the rigor we we bring to the measurement of interventions the role of
research methods in delivering services and and also it not acknowledged that
there are ways in which our focus on effectiveness and direct practice and
direct practice research has drawn attention away from other area important
areas of focus such as process and mechanisms of change and systems level
outcomes what’s also not included in this slide
is what we see as emerging areas of direct practice some of those surely
would include a focus on anti-oppressive practice models trauma-informed care and
even global direct practice which naturally reinforced the need to be
engaged at both the individual and the structural level I see I see I’m sorry that it yes I see
our history so I got split up into three different sides in terms of Social
work’s unique contribution which we’ve been asked to comment on for the
presentation and for this special symposium it’s our point of view that
the contribution of these and other direct Social Work scholars thinkers and
practitioners across history have resulted in a core set of values
principles and techniques that are readily apparent across all methods of
Social Work practice these include the importance of relationships
self-determination strengths base orientation among others and today we’ve
seen our co-presenter echo these similar themes and principles so in order to
respond to the enormous question posed by this special symposium what is the
state of direct practice today like good researchers we were interested
to see if there were data to help us answer this question which were
surprisingly few and difficult to find I’m going to turn this back over to my
co-presenter now who will discuss cswe data on trends and masters level
training an ongoing survey of masters level alumni and a survey of
practitioners after reviewing the data one of our primary observations which
dr. Marsh will discuss was that the number was that a number of the
prevailing perceptions and myths about direct practice were not reflected in
the data thank you very so this this next section
of our presentation is really meant to address a kind of subtext of the
presentation which is that it’s clear that we have very strong opinions and
perspectives on direct practice social work but we have much less data on the
subject so we identified some data that we’ll present to you and it will be
it will be valuable to take a look at that first of all the cswe data the this
comes from the annual survey that every school fills out and and on the survey
schools are asked to talk about what concentrations do they offers so we
analyze this data in terms of first total student enrollment that’s the the
y-axis and we divided it into micro the dotted trend line macro concentrations
the square trend line and we we kept the generalist advance generalist as as a
third area that might perhaps be the most integrated of our our
concentrations and what you see over in terms of the trend over time is that
this shows that over time about one third of our graduates are in
concentrations macro practice concentrations and about two thirds are
in direct practice concentrations if we we if we drill down into what does that
mean in terms of what our graduates do every day when they take their first job
we we had access to five years of alumni data from graduates of the School of
Social Service administration who were asked and the response rate was actually
quite good what what is your primary method when you in your new job and what
we found was that forty five percent of these social workers cited direct
practice the other ten percent cited research which was interesting as a
second largest the next was I can’t exactly see the management the next
after that was planning policy and program implementation applying formulating and revising
policies management External Relations and it goes down from there so four
minutes okay so if we take those forty five percent
and we divide them we ask them what is the second eye we really have to look at
this slide for Jennifer we ask them so you’re a direct service practitioner
what is your second most significant task and the second most significant
task cited at least the perception of these graduates is that advocacy is a
very important aspect of what they’re involved in as well as management and a
set of other macro practice related skills which really points to the to the
rich set of skills that our graduates are calling upon so quickly moving to
this idea the question really was what in our knowledge base is really useful
to practitioners we we talk a lot about the practice research gap in social work
and to address this question we again went to Social Work practitioners and
asked them is is the research in social work useful to you and what kind is
useful and to summarize that very quickly the results were quite
consistent with the knowledge utilization literature that shows that yes so that shows us that that in fact
most practitioners really appreciate research that is produced and they use
research not all the most vivid response we got was that social work research is
like chewing on cardboard but for the most part our findings show that
researchers have both the theoretical and
conceptual use of knowledge as well as more instrumental use that you might
consider evidence-based practice to fall into the second piece of information
that we looked at in terms of what social workers use was a citation count
study by Lacasse Hodge Lacasse and Benson at 2011 where they looked at the
100 most frequently cited articles some of you in the audience may have been in
that no doubt were I know mark was and what those data show are the same thing
we categorized those articles into conceptual and instrumental knowledge
and basically found that that social work those social work well used Social
Work articles are both research and more conceptual and use several different
research methods I just show you this graph for those of you who are concerned
about the rigor of Social Work research this comes from the work of Bruce lier
with the number of increasing randomized controlled trials that are being done in
social work over time let me quickly go to conceptualizations one minute okay so if you accept the fact that social work
is both vertically and horizontally integrated what does that mean that we
should do well our our suggestion is the need to strengthen Social Work training
across all concentrations and practice levels further to open programs this is
being done now to new pipeline programs and to be open to competing to for
preparing students to several different new domains of practice further if
professions are defined by the test they do we need to plan for direct practice
social workers that include the highly diversified tasks and prepare our
students accordingly and finally if the most
useful knowledge derives from practice we really need to better understand
practice relevant research identified models of research that engage
practitioners a number of these models are being used and developed now
practice-based research networks embedded researchers and social service
organizations and at this conference we identified a wonderful roundtable by
Paris Sharpe Spencer and who call me who in fact are looking at strategies that
would engage practitioners more fully now we’re not we’re not naive to the
fact that especially especially after hearing the the passion with which we
discussed these issues in our profession we know that these implications are
challenging we know that we have struggles ahead but we’re optimistic in
the sense that we feel that we can learn from the next generation of Social Work
scholars this struggle is real so thank you very much well first I’d like to acknowledge the
land we stand on in a spirit that we started soar the circumference with with
the grand entry and dr. Linda Smith this talk we stand on the land original land
it’s got white people I’m here as a visitor from what is now known as Canada
it’s important for me to recognize where we are and where we come from so we
claim our rightful knowledge for what we do as who we are and social workers and
Social Work researchers I come from Japan and I look kind of young but in
1986 I started my charity as a social worker in Social Work undergraduate
school in Japan some of my texts included included rich months social
social diagnosis Carol Germain Larry Schwartz Charles Garvin I also read some
other stuff with alex quito man and let’s you let me to study group work in
master’s program in japan however in my field practicum I was told that I should
forget everything I learned in school and just focus on what I can learn from
the field so this was my introduction to what was I what I was going to find
about about the division between research in the field or the research in
the practice or and also the expert model of Social Work knowledge and the
reality or what may be going on elsewhere so I will come back to that
point I was really fascinated by reading their powerpoints that gene and Mary
provided for me earlier and I’m gonna respond to that first and
come back to some of these points later so overall pictures I got was more
questions than what we the answers so what’s really the role of direct social
worker and so to the extent they also this is a larger question what’s it well
it’s really a direct social work and do we really have a sufficient knowledge to
support this change in endeavor what we know a Social Work profession if not
what can we do do we need different tools for knowledge
creation and one of the implications they had put forward if vertical and
horizontal integration strengthen the profession what can we do examine a pass
from csw be one of them and guidance can be found in probably some of the
traditional practices including indigenous training healing practices or
and also social practices in other countries I find Jonathan’s just
practice to be very helpful in integrating micro to macro practices we
were from building on our social work knowledge base but also bringing in many
different knowledge pieces from the global South as well for example many
communities have unit or practice unit of knowledge analysis as community not
individual so we start from community and from smaller unit we may be families
or individuals larger unit may be societies and so forth but we don’t
start from individuals so that itself will be very different way of looking at
the world if professions are defined by the task
state you then we may not be defining our professions really well and we need
to really critically reflect on social work education and really Jean and
Mary’s paper really call us to wake up and we need do self-reflection
so are we we know do we really know what we are doing continue to challenge a
century-old and false dichotomy or micro and macro device which has been talked
about already and also more teaching materials are dressed up and if the most
useful knowledge derives from the practice and if we are not capturing
that well even though with our best efforts so far what can we do
broaden tools to capture our knowledge stories art there are many ways to
capture our knowledge we may not be counting them as evidence can we broaden
the evidence we examine the nature of our knowledge master knowledge common
sense common sense is tricky because that comes under our skin we need to
take that out and we examine it’s really important to be challenged in our common
sense and if most effective determination source is not the Journal
article this is really tricky too and Linda Smith had some guidance also in
our the opening plenary during the swar conference and it’s urgent she calls us
also so this is Linda Smith’s quote from her book the globalization of knowledge
and Western culture constantly we are first the West video itself as a central
estimate knowledge the average tree of what counts as knowledge and the source
of civilized knowledge this is what we also hold and I’m not immune to this I
am also a culture into this assimilate into this so I can’t say I’m free from
this either and it’s really urgent to look to different ways of knowing
decolonizing our knowledge base and this is a process we can’t even I document in
local and in these indigenous knowledges so this is very important and urgency of
theory is also called for by bail facts I came to theory because I was
the pain within me was so intense that I could not go on living
I came to theory desperate wanting to comprehend to grasp what was happening
around and within me most importantly I wanted to make the hurt go away I saw in
theory a location for hearing so theory is not this grand thing there can be
different kinds of way systematic way of understanding the phenomena or
experience human experience and theories may not be accounting for what people
are going through we need more relevant theories we need
more relevant knowledge out there and maybe social work evidence that we know
may not be counting for that actually I see many Social Work students when I
teach social justice research class for camera evidence-based research
evidence-based practice class saying you know I don’t like research anymore I
don’t like research and I need to talk spend three weeks four weeks with them
before I can really talk about research because you know they feel the evidence
was randomized control trials and no no no it’s not that it’s there are many
different kinds of knowledge as evidence but it’s really neat to massage that and
we don’t want to stuck in that we all want to be stuck in that place personal
relevance for me is that I also was well assimilated into that way of thinking so
when I was met with my grandfather at my grandmother’s funeral
he was wailing and the morning my grandmother’s passing he was sick
obviously so distressed and when I looked at him flying to Japan oh my god
like that unlike Japanese men it’s what I thought that was my first thinking and
that was shocking to me because he later I thought oh my god I started thinking
like a white people too so I thought through the white eyes whiteness gaze
through white eyes to think about my people because I was so used to it in
classrooms oh you’re asking me about Japanese
let me tell you these are Japanese people so that was my way of survival in
classrooms where my way of knowing on my way of being worn out legit amazed so
after a few years of doing it and so well that I didn’t know how to know my
own people my family member so common sense needs to be challenged this is
some of the things I do theater projects that also lets you create in helping to
create policy Human Rights policy in the provincial level however these things
don’t count in reward system in the promotion annual oh that’s nice that’s
cute I mean it’s these are more than that but
it’s not a journal article until it’s written down it’s not in a website
doesn’t really it’s not number so grant writing grant federal grants
peer-reviewed articles those are things that are measurable
it’s not about Faculty of Social Work it’s a Dean oh it’s not like that it’s a
huge economic industrial complex that have a that have the grease grasp on
this so you know how can we push back so that we can create a knowledge that
matters that knowledge that it’s relevant to ask that is to practice
that’s to people so that social practice can be can stay relevant and we can stay
be in this field and in here doing my in social work is that you know it’s a
charity to enterprise you have Michael rush here and we are in enterprise if
you need to act in the enterprise and so it is a inherit dilemma so can is it’s a
leading agency profession social work and there’s a state always having this
you know paycheck can we how much can we resist and social work also have to have
standard by professionalizing its profession its our endeavor
yes a create helper in helpI that also creates us versus them so those are
fundamental DNA must be operated from so and should be the professionalize and so
that those are the debates that we also had hundred years ago between Gina Jane
Adams and mayor Richmond’s should we revisit that kind of debate and this is
global definition of social profession I highlighted things I that matter to me
and I think to this discussion on social justice which I understand needs to be
promoted and discussed further Human Rights respect for diversity not just
lip service but diverse knowledge is and can we really Unseld o ours and settle
our knowledgebase and you know listen to broaden things that we don’t know
indigenous knowledge is so that’s it thank you so much thank you and thank
you to the panel I had a few comments I wanted to make first I hope this doesn’t
sound petty but I really think we should stop using the term direct practice to
refer to practice with individuals and families as a community organizer and
advocate I work directly with people all the time as an administrator I’ve worked
directly with people all the time so I think we have to find another term to
describe that okay second point it’s very interesting I asked my students
when I teach social policy what is the first thing that you do when after you
say hello to a client and sometimes they get it and they say if they’re there
first let’s say for mental health where they say they take a history so why so
on that point one of the things that my own research has
as found is that schools of Social Work are teaching less and less of the
history of the profession of Social Welfare and of their relationship to our
society so how can people who are educated to be practitioners where they
need to understand the history of the people with whom they work not
understand the history of the context within which they’re working including
as several people including mark has written about what how that history has
shaped the nature of this practice including something that we often
reluctant to acknowledge which is to get back to your issue of tasks the social
control function of social work which is exists concurrently with the social
change function and how do we address that seeming contradiction last point
and that is from my experience at a half a dozen universities I’m the definition
of a Social Work professional vagabond that generalist or advanced generalist
practice is really code for working with individuals families and groups with a
slight veneer of community practice I have gone into agencies as a field
liaison or as a research consultant in which I meet practitioners who were
supposed to be teaching our first-year students a generalist model and these
are very experienced practitioners who cannot figure out a macro practice
assignment for first-year students when they’ve been in major agencies for
twenty or thirty years now I can’t I’m there for ten seconds and I’m not saying
this to pat myself on the back and I can come up with ten assignments without
even blinking an eye so what is going on here in terms of our self-delusion of
thinking that generalists practice equals this vertical integration that I
think you’ve justifiably pointed out is necessary so I think that there are some
issues that if we’re going to be self effacing
we need to acknowledge remain challenges for our field that I don’t think we’re
addressing in a in a totally self honest way but thank you for your presentation
I completely agree with your with your analysis and I think that that we have a
lot of work to do I the dilemma that that we tried to address and marry me be
able to speak to this is that all of our schools are different so I know that in
our direct practice clinical interpersonal practice work with
individuals families and groups sequence addressing finding finding even though
it’s not generalist but finding a set of assignments that enable our our
graduates to develop skills at all of those levels of practice it’s a
challenge that we’ve done in different ways in different times but it’s it’s
part of the curricular challenge can’t let the opportunity go I’m Gail
Stephanie Boston University it seems to me that one of the important things
we’ve had an afternoon in which we had a number of what we’ve commonly grouped as
macro type approaches with the final one occupying 25 percent of the time being
the individual families groups practices that it’s very important that we be
clear that we are training very large numbers of students in fact the largest
profession as I understand it that actually delivers those individual
family group experiences for people but these are very very important
responsibilities they interface of obviously with our value systems our
social justice issues the larger societal
jurors that affect this the policies the communities that they live in and so
forth but the importance of educating our students to provide as strong and
evidence-based practice as possible cannot be understated if we are to
continue to train our students to do this work because they are the ones that
are going to work with the populations in great need out there across contexts
health mental health housing child welfare whatever they context issues are
and it seems to me very important that we take this terribly seriously despite
the broader or in the context of the broader work mm-hmm but to make sure
that those individual family group tasks are done and done in the best possible
way as we know it from a research perspective so the interfaces that we’ve
got here it seems to me are with our health and mental health colleagues in
many contexts as well as our broader communities etc part of the reason I
want to say that is that we are also in a number of cases in our schools going
to be the gatekeepers for this profession and so basing it in our
research knowledge seems to me very important I’m not exactly sure where I’m
trying to go with this but I sort of feel like I don’t want the practice in
this context to get short shrift if we are educating two-thirds of our students
to do this work they must do it in the best possible way and we are the
research group that needs to help move that forward as we were conceptualizing
this conference the person who wisely pointed out well we really do have to
look at direct practice clinical practice
since it is such a large part of our work so thank you for that I completely
agree with that I guess I remember when hair respect and I wrote on faith one of
the questions I had particularly with this vertical integration idea is just
focusing on mental health practice for example but I would say this is probably
true for a variety of other things whether social workers actually do
anything different than other professionals with similar level degrees
when I was a clinical psychologist masters level clinical psychologist you
know good practice you know how to credential to do that and when we did
the book we really couldn’t find much evidence empirical evidence people did
appear achill studies the social versus doing those jobs did anything if there’s
any more vertical actually than what people like myself were doing that may
be different now I admit to not we’re viewing that lit and I’m gonna take the
other question after this but I’m as an editor of journal I think that’s a great
question right what is it we do that it’s different in any of these wells and
folks have talked about that I think throughout the day and I just want to
emphasize that including on the direct practice sign so I noticed somebody else
had a was in line there to ask a question I could comment go ahead Ben
I’m Beth angel from Rutgers University I’m gonna thank the panel I’m very
interesting talk practice teachers yes yes I should I should kind of plug today
I’m proud to be a the the direct practice professor for one of the
panelists today from what 19 years ago I guess I wouldn’t begin by just saying
that I agree with what Gail was just talking about with respect to the need
to make sure that the work force that we’re training and social work you know
consumes the best of our evidence and really applies it in practice and one of
the most evocative phrases you used in your presentation Marian Jean was that
reading Social Work articles is a little bit like chewing on card
and I think that as Umi was really astute in relating that to a systemic
problem in academia which is that if we were to create more palatable forms of
knowledge dissemination in the Academy were often not rewarded for doing that
and I’m wondering whether or not the panel has any thoughts about the way
forward and thinking about how to create knowledge that’s easily consumable
practitioners that they’ll use and and to create the most effective practices
that they can that’s a great question that in terms of talking about these
emerging methods like practice-based research networks that were
practitioners are themselves engaged in the process it’s this slide for
implications that said we need to address this issue of the academic
reward system unfortunately went on the cutting room floor when we were trying
to keep our time down but I was inspired in writing that originally because the
last time I saw zoomy it was at European Social Work Conference and she was
talking about her thought of voce’ work do you remember that I mean she really
is living the kinds of new methods that I think would be extremely least in that
session they were extremely compelling I think doing is not a difficult part but
creating a space to do so it’s not it’s not easy so I’m sure there are deans and
directors sitting in this room and you get tremendous pressure from the
University structure to again you know whatever many grants how many grants to
sustain the for example in our school our University
has been more and more disinterest decentralized so Faculty of Social Work
needs to raise more money mean fundraising has become more important
and individual faculty members getting external grants are more important in
Canada and students in Canada now and Canada is more get more social funding
from four universities however still so it’s more capitalistic neoliberal model
of the university operating so in that kind of climate it’s very difficult to
create space and time of equity members to be engaged in things that do not create did not lead to products that
leads you money like currency in knowledge production sort of a
university structure so which is called academic industrial complex so that I
think is how to do creation of different kinds of knowledge is that part I can
give you different ideas like I can give you a workshop just now that’s not gonna
be difficult because there are so many exciting people doing many different
exciting work by the PD part right now is that is now extra time extra work
that people need to take on or people after ten years or just decide okay I’m
gonna be assuming this I’m gonna be non-productive faculty person just
dedicating my time to work with the community and take up this work and do
this you know and you mind I feel like I have right peer-reviewed publications so
that I can it appease my institutional requirements but you know the kinds of
work that really like create the relevant knowledge and create
kinds of stuff that people can use readily my need much more time than I
know this the university can’t stop all right away so I think it’s complex
the answers are complex and I wish that there will be more space and maybe
Department level of faculty the school level there could be knowledge
mobilization person that can be hired like a social media person can help with
knowledge mobilization like right Twitter feed or right up or right things
like that I think those things might be in place already but when I was able to
get a help writing up from somebody that was so helpful because I didn’t know how
to write up it but or yes so like arias I hire artists to work with me and if
there are centers or knowledge creation center to help with me with the
facilitation or working with artists that’d be helpful I’m gonna be working
on creating cartoons somebody said cartoons earlier so if
there’s a university could have a knowledge mobilization center to sort of
go and take a science shop you just jump in and brainstorm and work on that kind
of stuff and if that Cammie County also as social responsibility middle or unit
that you can also count as in annual review that would be fantastic
okay let’s let’s thank gene and Mary

Author: Kennedi Daugherty

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